What is a Fortean?

 What does it mean to be a Fortean? In this episode, RamX and Bones walk through the lives and legacies of their favorite Forteans—from Charles Fort and Robert Kirk to John Keel and Mac Tonnies. These are the thinkers who didn’t claim to know what’s going on… they just knew something was. Fortean Winds brings their legacy into the present, with a data-first, belief-free look at the unexplained. Curious? You’re probably a Fortean too. 

Read more about our favorite Forteans here: https://forteanwinds.com/2025/07/25/understanding-fortean-curiosity-embrace-the-mystery/

Transcript

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;26;24
Unknown
Welcome to the Fortean Winds podcast, where we talk about UFOs and all the related high strangeness. I go by bones and with us, as always, is Ram X. Hey. Hey, everybody. Hey, Ram. It's, good to talk to you. And we are together again to talk about a myriad of things. I don't know where to start. That's a good way to get somewhere you've never been.

00;00;26;26 - 00;00;55;23
Unknown
That's right, sir. You know, I. I wanted to kind of get back to our oggi's and talk about 45, Iet Charles Fort the godfather of ufology. I guess you'd call. Come right. You couldn't have picked a better time to get us back to our roots, Like we've been going off the rails a little bit, talking about some current events, which I don't think we need to talk about because we were concerned that that news was going to get lost.

00;00;55;25 - 00;01;15;25
Unknown
People were saying, shut up. And we have we have two rules in America. You know, we have a global audience. So maybe they don't know this about us. We have two rules here. And number one is don't tell me what to say. Number two is don't touch my guns. Right. That's what happens when you break rule one anyway.

00;01;15;28 - 00;01;36;02
Unknown
We can move on from that and get back to it. This was a great idea to get back to 14 stuff because the world did not, move on from it. And it's evolving so we can get back to what we do best. Yeah, for sure. And, you know, you know, we can also I choose to just talk and speculate about the so called disclosure that's never coming.

00;01;36;02 - 00;01;59;14
Unknown
But, I think that's pretty much a waste of time. Yes. I think that's one thing that we've decided is we were talking about where to go with this show next and how to not get caught up in this nonsense, that disclosure is just around the corner. And that is kind of it's two things. It's both a grift and it's a political movement.

00;01;59;20 - 00;02;19;15
Unknown
So you really have to decide whether you want to be involved, because there is a political movement in there that's pushing for greater transparency in the government, and that's not a bad thing. Nope. But based on the precedent and all of the current evidence, we don't think that that is imminent in any way. So I don't want to waste my time.

00;02;19;17 - 00;02;39;15
Unknown
I don't want to waste my life. I don't want to waste my curiosity on that portion of the UFO phenomena. Right. Or just waste your energy. There's so many other things you could focus on. Absolutely. And if you're really interested in UFOs, there are people studying the science of UFOs and putting out papers. And you can go find those.

00;02;39;19 - 00;03;05;26
Unknown
Yeah, right. So to pretend like it's all whatever social media and the History Channel is presenting it as is disingenuous at best. Some of the paranormal studies that we've discussed, those EVP papers that we put out from the CIA, I mean, those are like 50 years old. Yeah. And yet here I was going our ghost, real Argos. Not before I began this.

00;03;05;26 - 00;03;29;29
Unknown
Like, that should be pretty much old hat to everyone, because those studies have existed for a long time with with all of the data and how to do it right. You know, to pretend like this stuff doesn't exist is just falling for this false illusion that, you know, it's falling for this licorice mustache. It's this barely disguised idea that this stuff doesn't exist.

00;03;30;00 - 00;03;49;20
Unknown
Right. Like. And you can choose the only, the only way that something like that exists is if people don't want to believe it. Right. That's one of the final bosses of the UFO phenomenon in UFO disclosure is getting people to want to believe it. And I don't know how you change it. How do you instill the public with curiosity?

00;03;49;23 - 00;04;13;27
Unknown
Yeah. I mean, it all kind of comes in waves, too. You know, it's it's strange that way. Maybe that's that's life. You know, things come in waves or developed in waves, but it's just it surges like we suddenly have this kind of interest in UFOs and the phenomena, and then it kind of goes, dies down a little bit, and then it comes back and it kind of penetrates popular culture, and then it fades away again.

00;04;13;29 - 00;04;34;29
Unknown
Yeah, I, I don't know if it's by design or it's just, right in the air. We can begin talking about fourteens because our approach to Fortean phenomena, which is really becoming something, I think in the modern era known as anomalies, sticks, and people are trying to make it a little bit more official. And I think that's great and I love it.

00;04;35;01 - 00;04;59;09
Unknown
If there's one thing that I will cut to being an expert on, it's on how to research the paranormal. I don't know how anyone could be an expert on the paranormal or on UFOs, when I couldn't tell you what they are. Right, but I am an expert on how to research that stuff in order to get more data, in order to move forward in your research and get somewhere.

00;04;59;11 - 00;05;36;01
Unknown
Yeah. I mean, you you learn how to remove that licorice mustache and use it as a licorice whip. Yeah. This is funny to be doing this. What is the fortune at the end of all this is a it kind of works out. I mean, it was a great idea because. Yeah, I think we we got to the end of what would have been our UFO research, and I want to tell people that, and I don't want to play this game with them and be disingenuous with them about what's next and what, you know, we can give you UFO news.

00;05;36;01 - 00;06;05;19
Unknown
We can give you our analysis of UFO news, but you're capable of reading the news or capable of critical thinking. And our audience is smarter than that. Our audience is about two and a half times the average grade level in comprehension of any of the average media. Yeah, I believe that. Sure. Which is great. I mean, this show worked out in ways that I couldn't have possibly imagined.

00;06;05;20 - 00;06;31;26
Unknown
And it wasn't all an accident, I guess. I think that in the end, you know, and I went through that firewall that we talked about and, that was really the end of it. That getting through that was really the end of it. And then the consciousness episode afterwards. And that. Right led into more contact for me. And I want to talk about that.

00;06;31;26 - 00;06;52;24
Unknown
And, you know, unpack that for a certain part of our audience at some point. And then probably delete it, because I'm uncomfortable with that. You know, you and I were talking about that before this. Like, I'm uncomfortable with being a reporter on contact. The contact did to me feel personal, even if the messages didn't feel personal in nature.

00;06;52;27 - 00;07;18;10
Unknown
We felt like the symbols that were presented were intended for me so that I could. Okay. And I think if I presented it in that way, the audience would take it literally. And there is both a literal way to take it. There's a symbolic way to take it. There's a scientific way to take it. Did you feel like it was kind of the, typical kind of trickster persona?

00;07;18;12 - 00;07;43;07
Unknown
No. Yes and no. I, that's the way I would say, like, I think that that trickster persona is also a way to teach you something or tell you something. And I think, I think that all of those sorts of behaviors were there, but we sort of got through it and we ended up in a state of alignment that I just want to be in with it all.

00;07;43;09 - 00;08;18;04
Unknown
Like I don't actually want it to change. And. Right, and I think messing with it anymore or really even talking about it and trying to do something with it, trying to prove it, like that, that's really the idea that you're trying to prove UFOs. I feel really bad for some of the past UFO researchers who gave their lives over to detailing these UFO encounters in a scientific manner, and collecting all of that scientific data only for the public to disregard it.

00;08;18;07 - 00;08;40;03
Unknown
And they did that with the belief that if they just collected enough data, and that's a good faith belief, a good faith scientific belief that if I just collect enough data and if I just collect enough proof, the public will believe me. Right. And then I can be the one to break the UFO case. Right, right, right.

00;08;40;05 - 00;09;09;14
Unknown
It can't be approached that way. It needs to be approached kind of like an academic, academic world where you try to build on the meta narrative. I mean, you don't do research, just, to, to get a, show on the History Channel. You do research to build upon a larger body of research. Yes. But when you have moving goalposts in academia, there's no entry point in any of those places for when there is enough data to say yes.

00;09;09;14 - 00;09;35;19
Unknown
There. That was an anomalous object. Yes. The anomalous object emitted EMF radiation like there. There's would be debate about that today. Yeah yeah yeah, yeah. And that brings us back to the Charles Fort thing because like, wasn't that one of his, his big positions was that there was dogma within academia? Yeah. By throwing out the dogma, Fort was able to see things a lot differently.

00;09;35;21 - 00;10;02;10
Unknown
So how did Fort start? Fort really started by collecting news sources. They collected newspaper clippings of weird and anomalous stories that he would collect when he'd go to the library every day. He wasn't like Keele. He wasn't a field researcher. It was more of a librarian and an amateur researcher. And he cataloged thousands of these anomalies. And then he started to notice patterns, the same ones that we noticed today.

00;10;02;12 - 00;10;30;26
Unknown
Yeah. And I mean, he truly was the, godfather of ufology. I mean, he he, he recorded just these, this anomalous stuff and kind of questioned to why, why is this being pushed, pushed aside? Why isn't this being regarded? Yeah. We did an episode on how UFO researchers conducted and UFO research is conducted by collecting lots of different UFO data and then looking for patterns.

00;10;31;00 - 00;10;49;22
Unknown
So we did date and time correlations. We did things like that. Well, that was what Fort was doing. He was saying okay, like here one of the most basic ones is what shape did they see? If someone saw a triangle in the sky back in 1920, that was a pretty big deal. There wasn't really a correlation. They weren't like, that was a drone.

00;10;49;27 - 00;11;11;10
Unknown
Right, right. So Fort started to notice things like that. And then he also started to note cases of things like spontaneous human combustion. And it's notable that, like Fort was born in 1874 and he died in 1932. He was doing a lot of his research in the early 1900s, and published his first book, book of the damned, in 1919.

00;11;11;10 - 00;11;35;15
Unknown
That was a collection of a lot of these stories at that time. And we've discussed this when we talked about Crypted research and when we're pulling information about things like the Mothman or Bigfoot from 1800 or 1900 news sources, those newspapers tended to be a little more sensational. At the time, they were competing for, eyeballs. The same way websites do today.

00;11;35;17 - 00;12;00;10
Unknown
So, hey, sometimes those stories were embellished, or sometimes they were just repeating something some guy said who was drunk. You know, that was a whole news source. But other times they were recording something where there was multiple witnesses, and it met our standard of evidence. And what Fort would notice would be there'd be a crazy story over here in like, Idaho, and then you'd find another news source.

00;12;00;10 - 00;12;30;13
Unknown
And like the UK, where two people were unlikely to have seen the same news sources, where the person was maybe a more rural person who wasn't accessing, you know, big city newspapers, there was no internet. So then reporting the same thing is this person was anomalous, right? And then Fort was the first one to really observe a pattern of ball lighting, which is being studied today, comes up a lot in UFO research and it's got various causes.

00;12;30;13 - 00;13;00;21
Unknown
And then there's also what looks like anomalous ball like thing as well. So Fort really was the one who sort of discovered, we can't really say discovered it. But he popularized the research of ball lightning. Yep. And the heart of fort's work is to really throw out dogma. And that includes scientific dogma and religious dogma and look at how long it took us to catch on to really what that meant, you know, and how much further it took us once it did.

00;13;00;28 - 00;13;26;04
Unknown
Yeah, for sure. And, you know, and with with that, you know, 19th century realization of how dogma can kind of bound you're thinking it. I think historically that was, that was like that was a that was a huge position to take. I mean, it was basically he's trying to free minds. He's trying to to get people talking about things that people didn't want to talk about.

00;13;26;07 - 00;13;59;00
Unknown
And if we looked at it in the context of his era. So spiritualism was getting big at the time. And then there was also in Darwin, the evolution. Yeah, religion was obviously very popular too. So there was all these different influences. And then you had science really getting into the Industrial Revolution. And this is where we began this sort of conflict between materialism and the metaphysical to.

00;13;59;02 - 00;14;24;03
Unknown
Which is something that holds us back in both science and our spiritual development, I believe, is the need to separate those two things. Yeah. I think another, key point to to fort's work was that, you know, he just encouraged, curiosity. Right? He didn't judge when when someone experienced some type of phenomenon. He took it seriously.

00;14;24;03 - 00;14;51;21
Unknown
He didn't just, you know, throw a label on someone. He was he was trying to promote openness. In our cryptid episodes, we talked about how Teddy Roosevelt was one of the people that collected some good Sasquatch research. Right. And so that's a good example. When we pointed out at the time of someone who prioritized data over theory and what he did was he went around and he started asking people who are familiar with the frontier and some of the natives, all right, what crazy stuff.

00;14;51;21 - 00;15;17;07
Unknown
You see. And he didn't judge that. He used open mindedness and he acted more like a scribe. He just recorded what they said. Once you record enough stories, you then start to analyze them. This is sort of how data science works for everything today. But they were doing it for the anomalous back then. And there was a guy who started even before them before it.

00;15;17;09 - 00;15;47;12
Unknown
Well, I would argue is the true first 14 and that is Robert Kirk. Okay. Yeah. So Robert Kirk was the Scottish folklorist. Yeah. So Rubber Kirk was the minister at Aberfoyle and he was born in 1644. He died in 1692. He was, minister, a scholar, folklorist. And the reason we would call him the first 14 is because he did basically what I just described.

00;15;47;13 - 00;16;16;14
Unknown
Teddy Roosevelt was doing for fairies. Right. And he was the author of The Secret Commonwealth of Elves, Funds and Fairies. And this book is legendary and 14 circles. And that's exactly what he did. He went around in the British Isles, and he was talking to a lot of people who would have been familiar with Celtic traditions, and they would refer to these fairies as the good people.

00;16;16;16 - 00;16;46;07
Unknown
And I am dying to do in a whole episode on fair. But for now, let's just say that Robert Kirk's work is what later 40 and such as Millais and Keel and Tönnies and us would use to point to the fact that fairies and UAP and things like angels are all the same types of anomalous entities. Yeah, I mean, that's really interesting, especially when you think back of of his era.

00;16;46;13 - 00;17;13;11
Unknown
I mean, that he had to be someone of a certain position to even be able to openly research that stuff. You think? Yeah, it's pretty wild that he was a minister so long before Charles, for Kirk cataloged non-human intelligences that were interacting with humans. He also recorded what I would call the first alien abduction case, which I mentioned before.

00;17;13;11 - 00;17;39;10
Unknown
And I think we need to do a deep dive into this. It's the case of Jacob Jacobson, really famous in Fortean and ufology circles. And what's really interesting about that case, if you look into it, I can put a link to a really good video on what I find really interesting about that case that I would like you to take note of is the red light object that was in the room, which gets described in alien abduction cases too.

00;17;39;11 - 00;18;10;27
Unknown
But here it was fairies. Kirk also collected firsthand witness accounts. So that's primary source material. That's what any historian would say. That's what any researcher or investigator would say. It's primary source material, and that's the best you're ever going to get from anything historical. And that was from the rural Scottish Highlands. And he proposed that these beings existed in a metal nature, which is now what we're calling the space in between the space between spaces as above, so below.

00;18;10;29 - 00;18;39;17
Unknown
It was this space between spaces, which is interdimensional, if you will. I think that that word is very limited. And in my context, the beings tell me that it's too limited outside of space and time would be more accurate. Right? Right. And Kirk noted that these beings were neither material nor fully immaterial. There was something in between and in other cultures, they don't get hung up on this.

00;18;39;20 - 00;18;58;07
Unknown
We don't know the scientific method by which that happens, even though quantum wood explained all of it. Right. But we say we don't know the scientific method by which that happens. So it can't exist if there can't be this connection between the immaterial and the material, which is completely ridiculous because we don't know what it is. It doesn't exist.

00;18;58;07 - 00;19;21;12
Unknown
I mean, that's like closing your eyes and saying everything around you disappeared, right? And Kirk refused to dismiss folk accounts despite being a Presbyterian and minister during a skeptical, often superstitious era, which was really unique at the time. Yeah, it was kind of a contrast when you think about, you know, the error that, Kirk lived in compared to Fort.

00;19;21;14 - 00;19;49;03
Unknown
You know, fort was kind of in the Gilded Age where, information was flowing a lot faster than it ever has. And, and, you know, industry was growing at an incredible speed, you know, and I think it's really notable that Robert Kirk didn't consider these things. Angels or demons. He considered them a category, all of us. And that's truly open minded for someone at the time.

00;19;49;05 - 00;20;13;26
Unknown
Right. He didn't resolve anomalies in the simple categories. And I have learned that that is definitely the best move. Don't assume that you can map the cosmology of the universe. You're human. Right? Right. And Ford and Kirk were both okay with saying we don't know. And I think I'm becoming okay with that. Like, I don't know. And that's okay.

00;20;13;29 - 00;20;36;20
Unknown
And in true Fortean fashion, Kirk's death was anomalous. As the story goes, he was found dead in 1692, walking near a fairy hill, and the local legends would say that he wasn't dead at all, that the fairies came and took him away for saying too much about what they were and who they are. No. Right. Kirk became part of the lore.

00;20;36;27 - 00;20;54;11
Unknown
And by the way, I think some of those rumors about his death were not well supported by the research, but the he became part of the lore. He became a character. Right. And we find this with a bunch of fourteens. And I found this with myself. Right. You end up becoming a character in the play. And we're going to talk about Kyle next.

00;20;54;11 - 00;21;17;07
Unknown
Right? Because Kyle comes up and he's sort of the Hunter S Thompson, I would say of 14 research points. Wait, what does that mean? Right. So hunters Thompson was famous for gonzo journalism and he like went and rode with the Hells Angels and then wrote about the Hells Angels while it was becoming like a sort of pseudo Hells Angel.

00;21;17;09 - 00;21;45;29
Unknown
Kyle went and wrote about the phenomenon in The Mothman Prophecies as he was researching it, and as he was becoming a part of the phenomenon. Was becoming a character in the play? Sure, yeah. It's like kind of like, you know, an anthropology G. They called it like reflexivity, where, where if you're if you're studying a culture, there's a certain part of you, a lot of them used to kind of live with them to learn about their culture.

00;21;46;02 - 00;22;09;25
Unknown
And then you have to study how, how, how you relating to this new culture and how how you function in it. Talking about the error, the error of of for to it's like there was so much work going on like, there's, Frazier James Frazier, he's the one who wrote The Golden Bough, and he it's almost like, a dictionary for cultural anthropologist.

00;22;09;25 - 00;22;34;18
Unknown
And he recorded all kinds of different just religions and, and traditions. And it's really comprehensive book. So, I mean, it was a movement. Yeah. There's a movement in order to create an ethnography, start to acknowledge different religions and record what they were saying, record what they were doing. And prior to that, the Catholic Church was considering all of that witchcraft.

00;22;34;18 - 00;22;56;08
Unknown
Right. Just having a different religion would have been considered witchcraft, demons, whatever. So in these places where the Vatican was losing power, all of a sudden ethnography began to become a real thing. And then we start to notice similarities between religion. And I think this is sort of where we start to decode certain spiritual truths. And this is just my own beliefs.

00;22;56;08 - 00;23;20;06
Unknown
And one of the things that Kirk's data helps us know from a scientific standpoint is that these witnesses had mind altering effects. The fact that he recorded that hundreds of years ago from the same types of anomalous beings that are being recorded today in scientific studies, is the best evidence that we will ever get. Phenomenon was going on back then.

00;23;20;09 - 00;23;47;18
Unknown
It's all they ever going to get right from historical source material. You're not going to get scientific data like it just doesn't exist. You know, this is the best we get. Yeah. And if you're doing a scientific study, you would be remiss and not noting. Yeah for sure. But we started to discuss keel. So John Alva Keel is sort of the godfather of this project in my own understanding of the phenomenon.

00;23;47;19 - 00;24;09;11
Unknown
Took a quantum leap when I read The Mothman Prophecies, and it was the beginning of sort of my own contact experiences, I think, to that that was something when I started to become more aware. So for me, I always have a very special connection with The Mothman Prophecies, and we've discussed it before. We've discussed how not everything in that book is accurate.

00;24;09;14 - 00;24;30;24
Unknown
It does give you a much more clear picture of what the phenomenon is and isn't. Yeah. So, you know, Mothman Prophecies was was, published in 1975, but he did a lot of work before then, too. And, I always think when I think a key, I also, think of Valley. They kind of touched on similar things at a similar time.

00;24;30;26 - 00;25;00;21
Unknown
But, yeah, he worked on kind of the same stuff he talked about, the folklore, folklore talked about the ultra terrestrial, you know, and, and that that was the one thing that got me to like the super spectrum that he would discuss in his later works to be the big five of 14 research is Robert Kirk first, then comes four, and we call ourselves 14, because his method of research is probably both well known for being associated with this.

00;25;00;23 - 00;25;26;23
Unknown
Then comes Quill, then comes Vela. In my opinion really comes after keel. You can hate me if you want. Yeah, and then comes Mac Tönnies, which we've discussed in the crypto terrestrial episode, and we think very highly of his work. So those are the big to me. Yeah. One of my favorite works was Tony's, Crypto Terrestrials book, and he did it the same way for it.

00;25;26;23 - 00;25;51;14
Unknown
Did it in the same way. Killed it it he collected all of the data. He looked for patterns. He developed hypotheses and theories off of the patterns. And then you attempt to test those hypotheses, and you can also attempt to test it with emerging research, which I think is most interesting. And what we tried to do with 14 widths was we said, okay, if we're right about this, then this will happen.

00;25;51;16 - 00;26;12;23
Unknown
And that happened a bunch of times, right? And we said, okay, look, we we said on this episode, if this happens, we know that this part of the phenomenon is true. That happened. That's all. That's all we're ever going to get. That's proof if we can say it before it happens. And then that's that's it. Right. So there are ways to test the data as well.

00;26;12;23 - 00;26;37;19
Unknown
And Tönnies did all of that. So I really enjoy his work as well. But Kiel traveled extensively. He went to Egypt. He went to Point Pleasant, that is what he's most well known for. But he traveled all around the country. He gave lectures, he chased monsters, and he was very proud of it. But in the end he said, don't do this, don't get involved in this.

00;26;37;22 - 00;27;00;26
Unknown
And he also developed some conclusions about the phenomenon that became very distorted. There's a magazine that we don't talk about, and I guess this is the perfect time to talk about it. And that's the 14 times it's the most famous piece of media associated with Fourteens. And we've never discussed it on the show. So what does that tell you?

00;27;00;29 - 00;27;36;10
Unknown
I don't consider it terribly serious. I think it's a cultural magazine and it's kind of cool in that way. It's fun. Like, I think it's it's it's neat. That's why I don't talk about it. Like I don't want to bash it. But don't confuse that with 14 research Fourteens. There are mostly academics. There's a great article that I will link to about a journalist that goes to a 14 convention and was expecting to hear all sorts of stories about Mothman and Bigfoot and the Sasquatch, and he said, I ended up at a convention for skeptics.

00;27;36;12 - 00;27;56;26
Unknown
You weren't expecting that, were you? Probably more academics or fourteens than anything. You and I are both scholars. Yeah, although we don't act like it might. So since we're talking about keel during that time period, and you've certainly heard us talk all about the before our Mothman episode, we're probably the best place to hear us talk about John Keel.

00;27;56;28 - 00;28;29;02
Unknown
But if we're talking about the timeline of 40. So around the same time, Shark Fillet publishes Passport to Mongolia and Mongolia is Fairyland. Fil-A makes this very strong connection between ufology and fairies, and he does so as a establish, respected scientist. Right. And that gives all of what we're talking about so much more credibility. And we owe him a huge debt of gratitude for doing that, because obviously, he put his own credibility on the line.

00;28;29;02 - 00;28;50;26
Unknown
When he did that, he came out as an experience for himself. He has seen structured craft. So imagine this, folks. Jack Fillet, who is a scientist in several subjects and was an astronomer who witnessed a UFO at the observatory he was at, and then he witnessed the cover of that UFO that he was at when he was younger.

00;28;51;01 - 00;29;13;23
Unknown
He witnessed structured craft. He had every reason to believe that these were extraterrestrial. Yet it was John Belay who wrote the book Passport to Mongolia who said, these things are the same things as fairies, right? He is considered the greatest UFO researcher of all time.

00;29;13;25 - 00;29;27;05
Unknown
Then.

00;29;27;07 - 00;29;48;15
Unknown
They.

00;29;48;17 - 00;30;13;16
Unknown
All right. I mean, just shows you a stump process. He didn't jump. Just jump to the easy conclusion he kept with his scientific principles. And he arrived at the same conclusion we did. He arrived at the same conclusion John Keel did. And I mentioned on this show I wouldn't read shark belay until the end. And I was like, we ended up in the same ballpark, but I didn't want to have anything close to confirmation bias near me while we did this.

00;30;13;20 - 00;30;32;09
Unknown
Like I wanted to do it. Same research that Teddy Roosevelt, Robert Kirk, and Robert Charles Ford did, and I wanted to do it independently of all of them. Right. So the only way you would ever trust it, and that's how fortunes are. And then once you arrive at the conclusion, I am not a believer, I'm a witness. Now.

00;30;32;09 - 00;30;57;14
Unknown
I've witnessed paranormal stuff. I've witnessed UFO stuff like there's nothing you can say or do to tell me that the subject is not real. It took that level of research though, and then you can't stop us. But at the same time, the public is way back here. And what are UFOs really real? We've been taking, right? We've been talking about where to take this show next.

00;30;57;16 - 00;31;27;02
Unknown
Like right here. Right. It's it's like it's the ultimate fort Maxim. Right. Never form a belief. Right. You don't form a belief. And we have a small UFO community that is filled with beliefs. And then we have a public that doesn't care. So that part of this subject is just getting less and less interesting to me all of the time.

00;31;27;04 - 00;31;50;26
Unknown
You know, bless their hearts. I wish them well on the road to transparency in government. But let's look at that in the context of our last episode. I mean, I don't think transparency is just around the corner. Well, we do. We also have the, you know, the Chris Bledsoe's of the world who are proclaiming that something is going to, you know, he's proclaiming cause and effect of reality here.

00;31;50;28 - 00;32;16;04
Unknown
So we have him to to watch. And the community has this idea that he is one of five, ten people in the world having this kind of contact. That is not true. So I appreciate that he has been validated. I appreciate that he is open about it. Contact. But you're talking about millions of people on this planet that are in touch with.

00;32;16;04 - 00;32;53;27
Unknown
Yeah, I'm for sure in the exact same way. So please don't assume that everything that he said is coming directly from God, like he's having contact with something unknown, and he's interpreting it and reporting on it, and that's all an experience or can do. But don't confuse this stuff with prophecy. Right? Well, because he he's gone into the belief, he's formed a belief like he's he's talking about dates now and in revelation, it's the message and the narrative.

00;32;53;27 - 00;33;17;06
Unknown
It's assets and agents. When you talk about the relationship between us and look on the non-human intelligences, and I only know about the ones that I know about, and those are the ones from outside of space. And time. Are you telling me that there's other things, too, and something in space and whatever, and that would make a lot of things make sense if there was something at the top that was enforcing some set of rules.

00;33;17;06 - 00;33;41;25
Unknown
Because I've always said it doesn't really make sense that all these different species or whatever would be coming to this plant, and they'd all be operating by the same sorts of rules of engagement and secrecy like that doesn't really make sense. It has to be one thing, but it would make more sense if it was one thing. Enforcing a set of rules, a universe that I know nothing about, that that makes a lot of sense, actually.

00;33;41;27 - 00;34;00;19
Unknown
They tell me it's something like that, right? But I only know the ones from outside of space and time. I that's all I can tell you about, right? And I can only tell you what they tell me. So. Right. What is that worth? You know, don't look at me like a guru. I don't have it all figured out.

00;34;00;21 - 00;34;26;03
Unknown
Right. I'm a 14 since we're talking about that. So what is a 14? Jeez, I don't know. Let's keep going. Yeah. As for teens, you know, we gotta talk about that. They were actually figures in popular culture, right? I mean, we kill. Kill showed up on David Letterman. David Letterman is asking them what? What? What's a 14? You know, what is there for it?

00;34;26;03 - 00;34;54;01
Unknown
You spells it. It's f o r t n. And then, of course, you can't, you can't deny, you know, valets position in the UFO world when when they made Close Encounters, the movie where they had the French, the French scientists there, it was based on, valet. Yeah. And valet said he talked to Spielberg about having it be interdimensional in the movie and thought that it would be more appropriate and right.

00;34;54;06 - 00;35;19;01
Unknown
He wanted to go with it because it was, you know, sort of pop culture. And then, of course, there's a bunch of conspiracy theories about that that someone got to Spielberg and made him say, oh, right. Oh, okay. I didn't know they, I don't know too much about the Spielberg conspiracies, but there's a bunch. And he did seem to have some sort of insider access, you know, which would make a lot of sense.

00;35;19;03 - 00;35;45;13
Unknown
Well, I mean, I could have I could have mentioned earlier when we were talking about Kirk that his father was father's name was James Kirk, you know. Yeah. I don't know if there's any relation to James T Kirk from Star Trek. As for teens, it's there. It's maybe, you know, to say 14 or to say just, just the name Charles for it doesn't bring up a lot for a lot of people.

00;35;45;15 - 00;36;12;12
Unknown
Yeah, it's it's there and they don't know it, basically. Oh, and Lauren Coleman, we should mention the work of Lauren Coleman as well, who is probably the 14 who's collected the most cryptid data. Right. Traveled around the country, dare I say the world following giant birds. What a great job, you know. Right. People like, how do I do that full time, right?

00;36;12;12 - 00;36;22;04
Unknown
Right. Well, the answer is we have no friggin idea. Right? And can I wear a cloak at the same time or.

00;36;22;06 - 00;36;44;25
Unknown
I know the answer to that one is yes. Yes, it's of course, please do. So a lot of questions will focus on specific phenomena. And there were a lot of Fortune's favorite is fairies. And I'm looking forward to doing our fairy episode. There's another faction talks about ultra humans, but when they're talking about ultra humans, they're talking about ultra terrestrials.

00;36;44;25 - 00;37;11;17
Unknown
I mean, this is going off into this strange direction of the 14 times magazine, which I don't really understand. It doesn't really follow the 14 timeline of academic research, so I just don't really understand it. I mean, what you talking about? Stories that link to, like, ultra humans that are living amongst us. Yeah. And they give them names and then they develop lore around them.

00;37;11;17 - 00;37;31;06
Unknown
And this was something that really bothered Kyle. So he did have he discusses his own views on the 14 times magazine and he did a couple interviews with them. But he was really bothered by what Fortean ism had become and what it was becoming. And he got a little better in the end. And he was like, you know what?

00;37;31;09 - 00;37;57;08
Unknown
It's all us. The phenomenon is all us. Right? There's some truth to that. We've talked about that, about how it's about both us and something else like, yeah. Kyle had a big problem with this movement and ufology as well. It's like the law is becoming a religion. People are just falling into the trap and this is just another symbolic, symbolic trap of the phenomenon, you know?

00;37;57;10 - 00;38;20;14
Unknown
But I'm not even sure if it's a symbolic trap. It's just telling us the same story. And we're not getting the message. Yeah, yeah. And then the reason we named it 14 wins is because 14 wins is a real term that describes certain atmospheric changes, and it's like a surge in energy that gives a feeling of an anomalous nature.

00;38;20;16 - 00;38;42;20
Unknown
And in one of my first contact experiments with one of the other guys from 14 winds who hasn't been on the show, we were sending out a signal and that was the response we got. The EMF meter went off the hook, and we got this weird anomalous wind, and it was just in our little area. And that's where the name came from, man.

00;38;42;20 - 00;39;04;02
Unknown
We're going back to the roots. All right. We've covered so much. You think back, you know, this is our 36th episode a lot of content there. Yeah. So in the end, Fourteens are data sleuths. I think that we've taken that to the ridiculous degree with our version of of Fortuna ism. But you can add us to the lexicon as well.

00;39;04;09 - 00;39;26;22
Unknown
I, you know, I think our point of view on what a fortune is, is no less valid than anyone else is. We did remove all of the racism that Fort had, and keel had in his work. They're flawed, like we're all flawed. Don't look at these people as messiahs or gurus. You know, they were good at anomalous research.

00;39;26;22 - 00;39;47;16
Unknown
That's what we know. And we fortunes pride ourselves on calling balls and strikes. Even we call things as they are. And we. Yeah, right. We follow the work of Thomas Sowell, who said, if you want someone to like you, tell them what they want to hear. If you want to help someone, tell them the truth, right? Yeah. Good point.

00;39;47;18 - 00;40;10;15
Unknown
We're all products of of our time, right? Yeah. So I mean, at this point, I mean, we took, ufology and basically said, it's true, right? It's there. Where do we go from here? I don't know, you sit and wait. Right. So we began this is kind of a UFO show, and I don't really think that that is what we want to continue to be anymore.

00;40;10;15 - 00;40;31;18
Unknown
So we're going to expand it a little bit more. And I guess if you were listening, that's probably what you were expecting. Anyway, I hope you're expecting a wider range of things to talk about. One of the things that we brought up before was like things about anomalies, like sound, and just dive into specific aspects about that, you know?

00;40;31;25 - 00;40;53;20
Unknown
Yeah, deep dives into that. I really enjoyed the World War two exploration. I got invited to a historians conference, which I would like to go to. That was really cool for me to do some historical research and something more scholarly. So maybe do more of that and less of the UFO stuff. You know, mean we were talking about the blogosphere and the tried actors.

00;40;53;23 - 00;41;19;29
Unknown
And the bottom line is that stuff is exciting because it could end up being material evidence of something non-human. Right. And that could end up using the sorts of change in the public attitude that yield catastrophic disclosure. And the only other thing that would do that would be an appearance by the phenomenon on a really wide scale. That is undeniable.

00;41;20;01 - 00;41;42;26
Unknown
And even if that happened once, people would forget about it. So yeah, it's going to have to be something pretty big, you know, don't expect that from all of all of that stuff. It is not precedented. And this phenomenon doesn't want it that way. And until it does, it's not going to happen. Yeah. I mean, just we're not looking for the means to an end, right?

00;41;42;26 - 00;42;11;01
Unknown
I mean, it's a process, right? An experience. I don't know. I don't know where to take the show next. And I think that that's a great place to start. Right. We were talking about whether we wanted to continue with this, and maybe because to me, that hacking UFO and the episode, afterwards, it's really was the conclusion of the research that allowed me to get the answers that I was looking for to the extent that I'll ever be able to get them.

00;42;11;04 - 00;42;35;16
Unknown
And so I can continue to talk about it. But no one's there. No one's there with me. Right. Like. Right. And there's no amount of context that would be able to give you no amount of articles and citations that I'm going to be able to write it, to have everyone come to that level right. So. Right, right. I just went too far, you know, like I thought I was first I thought I was going to prove it.

00;42;35;16 - 00;43;04;18
Unknown
And then I realized that that was a fool's game. So then I said, I'm going to understand what it is and tell everybody what it is. And, you know, I can't, I just can't it's. Yeah. I mean, at this point, what do we do? We just wait for more physical evidence early. But what's the point of it to when you look at the the short history of all that is that there has been physical evidence for a very long time?

00;43;04;21 - 00;43;31;11
Unknown
Yes, exactly. Yeah. And it doesn't seem like enough is ever enough. So everything you wanted, you got you you wanted you wanted videos. You got him, you wanted pictures, you got them. You wanted medical reports, you got them. You want to live witnesses in every facet of society, be they scientists, be they politicians, they've all said it like you got everything you ever wanted from this subject for proof.

00;43;31;13 - 00;44;06;15
Unknown
You're never going to believe it, and you're never going to believe what comes after. You're just not ready. Like the public is just not ready. Like. And don't ask me when you will be like, I don't know. It's up to you. Right? Right now, of course you got the two. You got the two schools of thought. Two, you got the you know, you got the folks that really want to believe, and they want everything to kind of be a conclusion that, yes, there's another there's other beings and there and of course, they're here to help.

00;44;06;20 - 00;44;27;11
Unknown
It was a very popular notion. But then you also have the other side. The folks that believe that, you know, that it's malicious and there's there's this, this dark side of the moon conspiracy. Okay. And the lizard people. So, so I think motivations. Look, I can go into what I know, which is all I'm ever going to get.

00;44;27;13 - 00;44;54;14
Unknown
And the explanation that I got, which is, yes, both of those things exist. There is something that we would perceive as malevolent. There is something that we would perceive as benevolent. They are performing a function. Right. Different humans align with different functions. And that is complex how that all works. You see it play out. You see as above so below play out every day.

00;44;54;14 - 00;45;17;26
Unknown
There's, there's not a real big difference. But there is a scientific basis for all of it as well as a symbolic basis for all of it. But that's what I, what I, what I know is there's both. Yes. So it can go good or bad. A lot of it is based on your beliefs as to how to form it, as to what will happen when you encounter this phenomenon.

00;45;17;28 - 00;45;44;21
Unknown
And there's also DMT in your brain. It's just in there all the time, and it's released when you're under high stress. And so I think what's happening in these and I, I still do want to do that episode on abductions is I can tell you what I know and that's it. I think what's happening in the cycle abductions is, is people are under extreme stress, DMT is being released and then you're going on a DMT trip.

00;45;44;23 - 00;46;12;10
Unknown
And because people are reporting very similar things in DMT studies. So something's happening there, right? Something both physical and perceived as spiritual. Right. And that's not wrong. Like you know that's the funny part. It's like religion is just different words. Just different. Yeah. I mean you go back to the super spectrum really, you think about you want to talk about the brain, chemical chemicals in the brain.

00;46;12;10 - 00;46;31;24
Unknown
I mean, there's always the I, the notion that we only use, what, 10% of our brain. Maybe they're just using more of the brain, see more of the super spectrum. Right. There's a pattern that the ones at the top outside of space and time are maintaining. And that requires sometimes things that go good and things that go bad.

00;46;31;27 - 00;46;53;02
Unknown
And it could be either one, but it requires something to change. And when something needs to change in order to keep the pattern and the direction they want it to go, they make it happen. If that requires something that's tragic to us, then that's okay, because that's what had needed to happen to maintain the pattern and that's how they look at it.

00;46;53;05 - 00;47;19;03
Unknown
Right. And one of the things they say in abductions is this comes up frequently. It don't stop squirming, stop screaming. We're not messing with your soul. You'll come back like, don't worry. Like this is just for this round or something like that. And that is consistently we've talked about the evidence for reincarnation. It's very strong in the sense that there are a bunch of kids who keep popping up with memories that they shouldn't have, and they're very detailed.

00;47;19;06 - 00;47;51;12
Unknown
And so that begs some questions, right? It looks there's evidence that would support it. That's all we'll probably ever be able to say in my lifetime. I mean, what is the scientific proof that you would recover, right, right from a child that has memories that they shouldn't have from 50 years ago. Right. What else were you expecting when you get way out there on the edge and you go, how did I get here?

00;47;51;15 - 00;48;19;04
Unknown
What happened? Like six years ago, I thought none of this stuff existed. I mean, and then when I found out UFOs existed, I thought that they were ETS. Like what? What happened? How did I get here? All of the methods that I used for human initiated contact. In my case, I detailed both in the podcast, and on the website.

00;48;19;07 - 00;48;44;28
Unknown
I don't think that I need to go through it blow by blow, but it's possible. You know, there's C-5 out there as well. There's things that that you could use to have, but that's what you would have to do in order to really understand the phenomenon better. How many people really want to do that? Right. Yeah. I mean, naturally, everyone looks for the easy, the easy answer, which is there aren't any.

00;48;45;01 - 00;48;58;02
Unknown
You don't want to do that right? No, of course I you see, you just said no, of course not. Now for me, I was like, okay.

00;48;58;05 - 00;49;24;17
Unknown
You know, and I'm realizing, I mean, and how many times have I told people don't say, okay, you know, don't just say, okay. And that was something we talked about extensively. I'm right in saying, don't just say, okay. Like there needs to be an initiation. You need to be initiated before contact. Or it could go really bad.

00;49;24;20 - 00;49;45;20
Unknown
And whatever form that takes like and I'm not telling you good, bad or ugly, whatever I'm telling you, that's all out there. And whatever you align with, you're going to get so that that's where it goes. So it'll be very interesting for us as we continue in this sort of ambiguous place, which is a great place to start of.

00;49;45;20 - 00;50;06;25
Unknown
Where do we go next on this show? I mean, I don't even know what our next episode will be. That's a good it's going to end it, I guess, for 40 Fourteens just channeling for as we go on our daily lives, something will come up. Exactly. Okay. Great discussion room. Yeah. Well, we'll have we'll have more in the future, but this was a good one.

00;50;06;27 - 00;50;30;00
Unknown
Everyone, just thanks for listening again. You could. This is the website at 14 winds.com. Yeah. This one took a lot of weird turns, but that's very 14. Yeah. There you go. So I hope it's very clear on what a 14 is now at least how to spell it right. All right. Well thanks again. Take care. Yeah.

00;50;30;02 - 00;51;09;04
Unknown
You.